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    « Africa Roundup: August 2007 | Main | An Observation On Science »

    August 21, 2007

    Comments

    Ree

    J.B.,

    That is the first thing I said, to my husband when I was watching this on the news. (This is Stupid) Michael Vick had an incredible contract $$$ reason enough to keep his nose clean and protect his interest. Is this a kind of Sport Celebrity Hubris? Akin to Lindsay Lohan, reportedly telling people, the night of her latest fiasco, I am a Celebrity and I can do whatever I want. I can't imagine squandering this kind of opportunity or future. Nevermind how I feel about the poor animals, I am an Animal Lover. This has so many layers to it and murky, M. Vick, involvement no doubt but how much of what the other people plead to, is the truth to help themselves out? Sad and Stupid.

    eric

    JB,

    I am a white conservative republican, but my burning passion is the NFL.

    A friend of mine from political circles, Laree, pointed me towards your site.

    I commented on this yesterday, and I am disappointed because, biased NFL fan I am, I wanted Vick to be innocent.

    http://blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/i-wanted-vick-and-oj-to-be-innocent/

    If you like what I wrote, perhaps we can do a link exchange.

    Respectfully,

    eric www.blacktygrrrr.wordpress.com

    RattlerGator

    Right on the money, Ree.

    Eric, I checked out your site a day or two ago. Very nice. I've neglected doing a blog roll on this site although I had one on my old site. If I get around to adding one here, I'll be certain to include you. And when the NFL season gets in gear, I'm sure you'll be hearing from me. Don't ask me to explain the following list but . . . Go Jags, Go Dolphins, Go Bucs, and Go Cowboys (especially if we ever get rid of that dadgum T.O.!)!!!

    Frank

    "In the years ahead, we're going to need more than a few men who can stare evil in the face and not immediately assume the fetal position. Some of those men will naturally get pleasure from activities that may displease many."

    Way to take a moral stand there, cowboy. That's the tidiest piece of rationalization for despicable character that I've seen all day. Such rationalization could equally apply in the case of nearly any reprehensible act.

    All right, so you make it clear you have nothing against the barbaric treatment of dogs. Because, after all, they are just put here for the amusement of our future generation of non-curling-up-into-a-fetal-position tough guys. The kind of tough guy who breeds animals just to have bloody fights for his viewing enjoyment and gaming pleasures, and then kills the poor performers with his bare hands. No word yet on whether he does so with a gleam of joy in his eye.

    Vince

    J.B., I too think Mike Vick is an incredible physical specimen who acted incredibly stupid and reckless. Like you, I agree that it is unfortunate that at a minimum, he will probably miss at least 2 years, perhaps more of his NFL career- I had thought his best days were ahead of him. He was not a great QB yet, but he had the potential to be one. While I am not quite as passive about dog fighting as you are, what I find most troubling is the fact that we as a society have basically degraded human life to the be inferior of animal life. Specifically, how can we justify giving Vick perhaps 3 years in jail for participating in dog fighting and brutality towards animals, but we have no qualms whatsoever with inserting pliers into an unborn baby to twist and rip the limbs from the torso and crush the baby's head in an abortion?

    Animal rights activists usually are pro-choicers who approve of abortion but not cruelty to or killing animals, and that's why Ive never taken their outrage over cruelty to animals with much seriousness. Why Vick will get a sentence that is much tougher than a doctor who performs an abortion, let alone a wife-batterer or someone who commits assault & battery on a human being, really doesn't add up in my mind, FWIW.

    Also, as an aside, from what ive heard, Vick is being sqeezed by the Feds to cough up the names of other NFL players who are involved with dogfighting, but he doesn't look like he is going to squeal like his so-called friends did. He wants to play in the NFL again, and if he snitched on his NFL brethren, he would be forever be a marked man in the NFL.

    Ree

    J.B.,Frank,

    There are people who can compartmentalize is Michael Vick one, I don't know. There is a dogfighting subculture, now was M.Vick raised around and in this subculture to the extent that it affected his decision making? Was it hubris, was it both? I understand where Eric is coming from because now I want what Michael Vick pleads to, to be the least of the animal cruelty charges. How did we all get so invested? Americans want people to succeed. One more note, those were not his friends, who plead out they are "Fair Weather Johnsons" at best. They are giving testimony to make their own sentences lighter, this is why I am waiting for next week to see what Michael Vick Pleads to.

    The emotional side, the analyst are not getting this right, they are comparing this to hunting for sport. A better comparison is another illegal animal sport "Cock Fighting" this goes on too. Why does one upset me more then the other. Cock Fighting vs Dog Fighting, both subcultures. There is a larger American Culture. Chickens are not as a rule, kept as pets in this country but a whole lot of us eat poultry, that is raised for a source of food. This gives new meaning to the phrase, playing with your food.
    Dogs are not raised for a food source in this country, they are pets and companions, working dogs herd cattle and sheep. We have Police Dogs and Seeing Eye Dogs, Service Dogs. This is why people have had this strong aversion to the practice of Dogfighting. The position Dogs have in the majority of American's households and daily lives.

    I get what J.B., means about being able to stare evil in the face. We don't want to be too tamed. There is a difference btw civlized and being tame though...I am from Western Montana and if you ask Montanans, how they prefer to live, many are going to answer wild and untamed.

    Many simply cannot "relate" to dogfighting and the cruelty. I am trying to "understand" it. This has so many layers, no doubt someone is going to write a book about it.

    Ree

    RattlerGator

    This is not moral relativism, Frank, and on a certain level we're having an unserious discussion in this country about dogfighting which is typified by your rant.

    Dogfighting has always existed in this country. It always will exist. Travel around the globe, and you -- Frank -- may be repulsed.

    Human beings engage in all kinds of behaviors that you will undoubtedly deem to be barbaric. Either you understand that or you don't. So you, fine cultured man that you are want to legislate against it. Fine. This has been repeated throughout human history. Get too civilized, too comfortable, too righteous -- and prepare to be defeated.

    I recognize that you may not care about that, Frank, and that you have a contrary opinion. Respect my contrary opinion.

    Jewish Odysseus

    JB, I totally understand your nuanced view of dog-fighting. I have defended (in court) and conversed with a number of dog-fighters, too.

    Man has domesticated dogs and promoted their fighting for what, 5,000 years? And this fighting has been widely disapproved for what, 100? So people need to appreciate the very deep roots and appeal (not to say legitimacy) of this activity.

    Perhaps 100 years from now boxing will outlawed. Does that make today's boxing fans despiccable, too?

    JB, that was a VERY insightful analysis about the denigration of, shall I say, testosteronized activities in our culture. We need to reverse this emasculation of our culture, or, as you described it, these bearded little Islamo-lunatics will surely bomb and murder us into submission/dhimmitude.

    warbird

    Bottom line.If you do not like animal fighting be it dog or cock then mind your own damn business.It should be legal to sue you out of existence when you interfere.As long as abortion on an innocent human fetus is legal for the convenience of the mother is legal then no law whatsoever should be allowed on the books for animal fighting.Shame on the human debris liberals that think otherwise.Sin is their first name!

    Animal Chaplain Nancy Cronk

    If there is anything good about the Michael Vick story, it is that there is an emerging increased awareness about animal cruelty and animal fighting. However...

    I think it is a sad commentary that we, as a culture, are using the Vick story to compare "What's worse?" "What's worse", we ask, "carelessly fathering illegitimate children, or dogfighting?". "Dogfighting or gambling?" "Dogfighting or rape?" "Dogfighting or racism?" "Dogfighting or hateful nationalism?" "Dogfighting or (fill in the blank)....?" The comparisons to dogfighting have been endless.

    Dogfighting is one more piece of evidence our country is in need of a spiritual transformation (please note I said spiritual and not necessarily religious). Animals are sentient beings - they feel pain, and they suffer, just like we do. They are not more important, or less important than human beings, but like human beings, they are important, too.

    Every major faith teaches its followers to be responsible stewards of animals and the Earth. Please help us get the word out that caring for animals, just like caring for people, is an important part of just being a decent person and citizen. If we make this a priority, there will be no more dogfighting horror stories, and no more pointless comparisons of evils. Let us all rise, together, to be better people than we are today, shall we?

    Chaplain Nancy Cronk
    Founder, www.AnimalChaplains.com

    Frank Tillery

    As an owner of a beautiful German Shephard and an equally spiritied Mini-Schnauzer, I was really upset initially with Mr. Vick's decisions. Then I thought that in some countries dogs are domesticated, farmed and eaten as food. Wow! Talk about terrible! Then I thought, what about the animals we in the U.S.A. domesticate, farm and eat. Who is standing up for the plight of the helpless chickens and cows...what about the pigs and turkeys? Yeah, yeah, I know what you are going to say...it was just a thought anyway.

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